If MU, KU, UNC and Duke win two games this weekend it would set up an MU/KU and UNC/Duke semi-final round. I do realize that as a basketball program, MU would be the ugly stepchild is this foursome. However, I can't imagine two more heated rivals going at it on a national stage. Do I think it will happen? No, I don't think we (Mizzou) has the horses to beat Memphis and/or UCONN. It would be a crazy Final 4 though.
Secondly, congrats to Coach Self on the National COY, he is very worthy of that award. I do, however, want to put a word in for HC Mike Anderson. He has done a great job this year. I would say he did as good a job as HC Mark Mangino did in '07 with your football team. MM did not win any titles but he did an amazing job with what he had to work with, just like Mike Anderson.
Posted on 3/23 6:49 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: If MU, KU, UNC and Duke win two games this weekend it would set up an MU/KU and UNC/Duke semi-final round. I do realize that as a basketball program, MU would be the ugly stepchild is this foursome. However, I can't imagine two more heated rivals going at it on a national stage. Do I think it will happen? No, I don't think we (Mizzou) has the horses to beat Memphis and/or UCONN. It would be a crazy Final 4 though.
Secondly, congrats to Coach Self on the National COY, he is very worthy of that award. I do, however, want to put a word in for HC Mike Anderson. He has done a great job this year. I would say he did as good a job as HC Mark Mangino did in '07 with your football team. MM did not win any titles but he did an amazing job with what he had to work with, just like Mike Anderson.
I agree that it would be absolutely insane but I just don't see it happening. First I don't think Duke will win another game. Both Kansas and Mizzou have their hands full in the first game this weekend as well.
As for Anderson, I agree that he should get consideration but Self, IMO, is more deserving. Anderson should certainly be #2 on all ballots. And just as a clarification in 07 Mangino won virtually every COY award that you can win.
Posted on 3/23 7:27 PM | IP: Logged
"As for Anderson, I agree that he should get consideration but Self, IMO, is more deserving. Anderson should certainly be #2 on all ballots. And just as a clarification in 07 Mangino won virtually every COY award that you can win."
That was my point but in a politically correct form. I think Mike Anderson has accomplished this year in hoops everything that MM did in football in '07. I know it is hard to compare but simply one fans opinion. Good luck this weekend. I would take the Hawks plus 1.5.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:32 PM by 96Rebel
This post was edited on 3/23 7:45 PM by 96Rebel
Posted on 3/23 7:30 PM | IP: Logged
One more thing kunomu,
If MU were to ever make a Final 4 it would only be fitting if KU was there to try and stop us in the semi's, so it kind of makes sense even though highly unlikely.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:39 PM by 96Rebel
Posted on 3/23 7:34 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: One more thing kunomu,
If MU were to ever make a Final 4 it would only be fitting if KU was there to try and stop us in the semi's, so it kind of makes sense even though highly unlikely.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:39 PM by 96Rebel
I'd prefer to crush your dreams in the Championship game. That would be fitting.
Good luck this weekend. As much as I hate MU, I'm sick of the disrespect towards the Big XII from the East Coast @$$holes.
Posted on 3/23 8:33 PM | IP: Logged
Anderson is a very good coach. If he continues to do as well as this year, the awards will come.
Posted on 3/23 9:09 PM | IP: Logged
kunomu,
Do you really include 1922 and 1923 as National Titles? They were voted on 12 years after the games were played. Don't you think KU has enough history to not include these? I feel like it almost cheapens the other 3 banners you have hanging.
The Helms Athletic Foundation was an athletic foundation based in Los Angeles, founded in 1936 by Bill Schroeder and Paul Helms. It put together a panel of experts[citation needed] to select National Champion teams and make All-America team selections in a number of college sports including football and basketball. The panel met annually[citation needed] to vote on a National Champion until 1982 and retroactively ranked football teams dating back to 1883 and basketball back to 1901. The Helms Foundation also operated a Hall of Fame for both college sports.
Besides collegiate athletics, the Foundation operated Halls of Fame for Professional Football, Major League Baseball, Pacific Coast League, Basketball, Golf, Tennis, Swimming, Auto Racing and Track & Field.[1]
After Paul Helms' death in 1957, United Savings and Loan became the Helms Foundation's benefactor and when United merged with Citizen Savings Bank in 1973, the Athletic Foundation became known as the Citizens Savings Athletic Foundation. It was again renamed in 1982 when First Interstate Bank assumed sponsorship for the foundation's final year.
When the Helms Foundation dissolved, its historical holdings were absorbed into the collection of the Amateur Athletic Foundation.
Posted on 3/24 3:56 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: kunomu,
Do you really include 1922 and 1923 as National Titles? They were voted on 12 years after the games were played. Don't you think KU has enough history to not include these? I feel like it almost cheapens the other 3 banners you have hanging.
The Helms Athletic Foundation was an athletic foundation based in Los Angeles, founded in 1936 by Bill Schroeder and Paul Helms. It put together a panel of experts[citation needed] to select National Champion teams and make All-America team selections in a number of college sports including football and basketball. The panel met annually[citation needed] to vote on a National Champion until 1982 and retroactively ranked football teams dating back to 1883 and basketball back to 1901. The Helms Foundation also operated a Hall of Fame for both college sports.
Besides collegiate athletics, the Foundation operated Halls of Fame for Professional Football, Major League Baseball, Pacific Coast League, Basketball, Golf, Tennis, Swimming, Auto Racing and Track & Field.[1]
After Paul Helms' death in 1957, United Savings and Loan became the Helms Foundation's benefactor and when United merged with Citizen Savings Bank in 1973, the Athletic Foundation became known as the Citizens Savings Athletic Foundation. It was again renamed in 1982 when First Interstate Bank assumed sponsorship for the foundation's final year.
When the Helms Foundation dissolved, its historical holdings were absorbed into the collection of the Amateur Athletic Foundation.
IMO no different than every single football championship awarded.....ever. When the NCAA finally goes to a playoff format(if ever) will we null and void all prior football championships?
Posted on 3/24 5:24 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Turinturumbar:
Originally posted by 96Rebel: kunomu,
Do you really include 1922 and 1923 as National Titles? They were voted on 12 years after the games were played. Don't you think KU has enough history to not include these? I feel like it almost cheapens the other 3 banners you have hanging.
The Helms Athletic Foundation was an athletic foundation based in Los Angeles, founded in 1936 by Bill Schroeder and Paul Helms. It put together a panel of experts[citation needed] to select National Champion teams and make All-America team selections in a number of college sports including football and basketball. The panel met annually[citation needed] to vote on a National Champion until 1982 and retroactively ranked football teams dating back to 1883 and basketball back to 1901. The Helms Foundation also operated a Hall of Fame for both college sports.
Besides collegiate athletics, the Foundation operated Halls of Fame for Professional Football, Major League Baseball, Pacific Coast League, Basketball, Golf, Tennis, Swimming, Auto Racing and Track & Field.[1]
After Paul Helms' death in 1957, United Savings and Loan became the Helms Foundation's benefactor and when United merged with Citizen Savings Bank in 1973, the Athletic Foundation became known as the Citizens Savings Athletic Foundation. It was again renamed in 1982 when First Interstate Bank assumed sponsorship for the foundation's final year.
When the Helms Foundation dissolved, its historical holdings were absorbed into the collection of the Amateur Athletic Foundation.
IMO no different than every single football championship awarded.....ever. When the NCAA finally goes to a playoff format(if ever) will we null and void all prior football championships?
That would be my point if I were to argue it. However, the picture that is my signature was taken directly from the wall at AFH and then I photoshoped the black and white.
Posted on 3/24 5:30 PM | IP: Logged
"IMO no different than every single football championship awarded.....ever. When the NCAA finally goes to a playoff format(if ever) will we null and void all prior football championships?"
I see some similar things but one major difference, the voters today get to see the teams play. In 1922 and 1923, television was not an option. Unless the Helm Foundation has some state of the art cameras that were not known to the public, they never saw the teams play.
Posted on 3/24 6:44 PM | IP: Logged
Today they use RPI and compared records and such. I can imagine they did it the same way back then. They probably looked at which teams they played and the records of the teams they played(an RPI type system) and based it off of that. IMO not much different.
Posted on 3/24 6:52 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: "IMO no different than every single football championship awarded.....ever. When the NCAA finally goes to a playoff format(if ever) will we null and void all prior football championships?"
I see some similar things but one major difference, the voters today get to see the teams play. In 1922 and 1923, television was not an option. Unless the Helm Foundation has some state of the art cameras that were not known to the public, they never saw the teams play.
I see what you are saying but at the same time its the best system they had at the time. College Football had the same system. Michigan, for example, claims 11 football titles and 6 of those occurred before or in 1923. Basically the exact same way that Kansas is recognized with the 2 in 1922 and 1923. Its the best system they had at the time therefore its what I go on.
Basically its like the other two have said, its the best they had at the time.
I sure as hell wouldn't give them back.
Posted on 3/24 9:59 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: "As for Anderson, I agree that he should get consideration but Self, IMO, is more deserving. Anderson should certainly be #2 on all ballots. And just as a clarification in 07 Mangino won virtually every COY award that you can win."
That was my point but in a politically correct form. I think Mike Anderson has accomplished this year in hoops everything that MM did in football in '07. I know it is hard to compare but simply one fans opinion. Good luck this weekend. I would take the Hawks plus 1.5.
This post was edited on 3/23 7:32 PM by 96Rebel
This post was edited on 3/23 7:45 PM by 96Rebel
Not really arguing, but it's much easier to "turn around" a basketball program than it is a football program. Granted Todd Reesing has really had a huge impact on KU's program, but it only takes one or two really good players to turn around a program (see KSU with Beasley and Walker).
It will be interesting to see if he maintains it - or stays.
Posted on 3/25 9:08 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel: kunomu,
Do you really include 1922 and 1923 as National Titles? They were voted on 12 years after the games were played. Don't you think KU has enough history to not include these? I feel like it almost cheapens the other 3 banners you have hanging.
The Helms Athletic Foundation was an athletic foundation based in Los Angeles, founded in 1936 by Bill Schroeder and Paul Helms. It put together a panel of experts[citation needed] to select National Champion teams and make All-America team selections in a number of college sports including football and basketball. The panel met annually[citation needed] to vote on a National Champion until 1982 and retroactively ranked football teams dating back to 1883 and basketball back to 1901. The Helms Foundation also operated a Hall of Fame for both college sports.
Besides collegiate athletics, the Foundation operated Halls of Fame for Professional Football, Major League Baseball, Pacific Coast League, Basketball, Golf, Tennis, Swimming, Auto Racing and Track & Field.[1]
After Paul Helms' death in 1957, United Savings and Loan became the Helms Foundation's benefactor and when United merged with Citizen Savings Bank in 1973, the Athletic Foundation became known as the Citizens Savings Athletic Foundation. It was again renamed in 1982 when First Interstate Bank assumed sponsorship for the foundation's final year.
When the Helms Foundation dissolved, its historical holdings were absorbed into the collection of the Amateur Athletic Foundation.
Retroactive or not, that was the system and is considered to be a national title for those years. Changing the rules doesn't void the old titles. Whether or not we agree with the methodology is moot.
Posted on 3/25 9:11 AM | IP: Logged
That would be awesome. You'd have the true rivalry (KU/MU) and the hype rivalry (UNC/Duke). There's a good chance none of them will make it.
Anderson has done a heck of a job and deserves to be #2 on every ballot. From what I've seen, I like him and hope he continues to be successful. As much as I dislike MU, I want them to be solid because I much prefer the recognition and weight that comes with a game featuring two ranked opponents than the footnote games of KU at 1 or 2 and MU middle of the pack Big 12.
On a side note, the Big 12 needs to market itself better. Everyone has been on the ACC and Big East's nuts all year and yet the Big 12 has more teams remaining than the ACC and wasn't protected like some of the ACC teams (see Wake). Every Big 12 coach should be hyping the league when they get the chance to see if they can overcome the ESPN/East Coast voice boxes.
Posted on 3/25 7:26 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by hills5: That would be awesome. You'd have the true rivalry (KU/MU) and the hype rivalry (UNC/Duke). There's a good chance none of them will make it.
Anderson has done a heck of a job and deserves to be #2 on every ballot. From what I've seen, I like him and hope he continues to be successful. As much as I dislike MU, I want them to be solid because I much prefer the recognition and weight that comes with a game featuring two ranked opponents than the footnote games of KU at 1 or 2 and MU middle of the pack Big 12.
On a side note, the Big 12 needs to market itself better. Everyone has been on the ACC and Big East's nuts all year and yet the Big 12 has more teams remaining than the ACC and wasn't protected like some of the ACC teams (see Wake). Every Big 12 coach should be hyping the league when they get the chance to see if they can overcome the ESPN/East Coast voice boxes.
I think it has alot more to do with the amount of people living in the Big East area than it does with how the Big 12 markets itself.
Posted on 3/25 8:56 PM | IP: Logged
For Anderson to match what Mangino did in 2007, he would need to get his team to the Final 4. That would get them to the last 4 teams of the tourney which is basically what the football Hawks of '07 did. They were one of the last 4 teams who won a major bowl equivalent to being the last 4 teams (winning regional final). JMO.
Posted on 3/26 3:04 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by phrogger: For Anderson to match what Mangino did in 2007, he would need to get his team to the Final 4. That would get them to the last 4 teams of the tourney which is basically what the football Hawks of '07 did. They were one of the last 4 teams who won a major bowl equivalent to being the last 4 teams (winning regional final). JMO.
I respectfully disagree. Mangino came in 2nd in the Big 12 North. Anderson came in 3rd in the Big 12, draw. KU won the Orange Bowl against V. Tech while Mizzou beat three average teams to win the Big 12 Tournament Title and then two games in the big dance. The BCS is so screwed up it really is hard to compare though. However, both MM and MA took teams with 2 and 3 star talent and took on the big boys which I think we can all agree makes a great season even better.
That being said, I look forward to being the hunter this year in football and not the hunted. The Cornhuskers really think they are heading out of Lawrence with a "W" this year. If KU didn't have TX, TX Tech on the road and OU at home I would say you guys were a lock to win the North this year. My gut feeling is Mizzou and KU both beat Nebraska this fall and the game at Arrowhead will be for the North. I don't know if I can handle it for the 3rd year in a row, tough on the nerves.
Posted on 3/26 5:28 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel:
Originally posted by phrogger: For Anderson to match what Mangino did in 2007, he would need to get his team to the Final 4. That would get them to the last 4 teams of the tourney which is basically what the football Hawks of '07 did. They were one of the last 4 teams who won a major bowl equivalent to being the last 4 teams (winning regional final). JMO.
I respectfully disagree. Mangino came in 2nd in the Big 12 North. Anderson came in 3rd in the Big 12, draw. KU won the Orange Bowl against V. Tech while Mizzou beat three average teams to win the Big 12 Tournament Title and then two games in the big dance. The BCS is so screwed up it really is hard to compare though. However, both MM and MA took teams with 2 and 3 star talent and took on the big boys which I think we can all agree makes a great season even better.
That being said, I look forward to being the hunter this year in football and not the hunted. The Cornhuskers really think they are heading out of Lawrence with a "W" this year. If KU didn't have TX, TX Tech on the road and OU at home I would say you guys were a lock to win the North this year. My gut feeling is Mizzou and KU both beat Nebraska this fall and the game at Arrowhead will be for the North. I don't know if I can handle it for the 3rd year in a row, tough on the nerves.
I agree with the majority of what you said. Both coaching jobs were great and deserved to be recognized. Virtually any other year MA would win COY. However, Self, IMO, did a better job this year but not by much.
As for the football season...Kansas does have the gauntlet of south teams again this year. I really think that if we can win at TTU we will be in great shape to win the north. I just don't see us winning at UT and the OU game, at this point, I am chalking up as a loss. In my opinion the big game in the north for Kansas is @Colorado. That is a tough place to go play and Hawkins is slowly building out there. Other than that I don't see Kansas losing to Iowa St, K-State, or Nebraska. Kansas should beat Nebraska at home. Then if Kansas goes to Arrowhead at 9-2 I like our chances against Mizzou and 10-2 should be good enough to get the north. However, anything can happen.
Posted on 3/26 6:14 PM | IP: Logged
"As for the football season...Kansas does have the gauntlet of south teams again this year. I really think that if we can win at TTU we will be in great shape to win the north. I just don't see us winning at UT and the OU game, at this point, I am chalking up as a loss. In my opinion the big game in the north for Kansas is @Colorado. That is a tough place to go play and Hawkins is slowly building out there. Other than that I don't see Kansas losing to Iowa St, K-State, or Nebraska. Kansas should beat Nebraska at home. Then if Kansas goes to Arrowhead at 9-2 I like our chances against Mizzou and 10-2 should be good enough to get the north. However, anything can happen."
The one and only thing I have ever learned when it comes to the MU/KU football game is to not even try and predict a winner. It does not matter if it is 8 months from game time or the day before, it just can't be predicted. I think Mizzou may take it on the chin a couple of times before conference play starts but looking at our conference schedule, I think we can have 4 wins in conference before the game at Arrowhead. Our one advantage this year is we have no pressure and KU will be picked by everyone to win the North. Gary Pinkel has proven he can get production out of the QB position. Brad Smith (2 star recruit ended up with 89 school, conference and NCAA redords) and Chase Daniel (3 star recruit that ended up the best QB in Missouri history)are proof of that. Blain Gabbert (5 star recruit and #1 ranked pro-style QB last year by Rivals.com) will be taking over with a proven o-line and a solid runner in D. Washington. The big question is can we improve on defense, and I mean stay with in 5 yards of Mier and Briscoe. Maybe our new d-coordinator will help. It should be a really entertaining year in the Big 12 North.
Posted on 3/26 7:07 PM | IP: Logged
OK, since Duke it out how about MU, KU and OU in the Final 4? That may shut up Dicky V. for once becuase he would not have all the east coast teams to talk about.
Posted on 3/27 12:57 PM | IP: Logged
nothing shuts Dickie V up ever! He would just go on and on about how awesome the Big XII is baby!
Posted on 3/27 3:42 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel:
Originally posted by phrogger: For Anderson to match what Mangino did in 2007, he would need to get his team to the Final 4. That would get them to the last 4 teams of the tourney which is basically what the football Hawks of '07 did. They were one of the last 4 teams who won a major bowl equivalent to being the last 4 teams (winning regional final). JMO.
I respectfully disagree. Mangino came in 2nd in the Big 12 North. Anderson came in 3rd in the Big 12, draw. KU won the Orange Bowl against V. Tech while Mizzou beat three average teams to win the Big 12 Tournament Title and then two games in the big dance. The BCS is so screwed up it really is hard to compare though. However, both MM and MA took teams with 2 and 3 star talent and took on the big boys which I think we can all agree makes a great season even better.
That being said, I look forward to being the hunter this year in football and not the hunted. The Cornhuskers really think they are heading out of Lawrence with a "W" this year. If KU didn't have TX, TX Tech on the road and OU at home I would say you guys were a lock to win the North this year. My gut feeling is Mizzou and KU both beat Nebraska this fall and the game at Arrowhead will be for the North. I don't know if I can handle it for the 3rd year in a row, tough on the nerves.
KU and Mizzou tied for the Big 12 North Title. Mizzou held the TIE-breaker.
This post was edited on 3/28 1:00 PM by IZAC
Posted on 3/28 12:59 PM | IP: Logged
OK, Gary Pinkel had his team playing for a Big 12 Championship in 2007 at Arrowhead. Regardless, they both did a hell of a job.
Will Collins hit the road? I think he is gone but Aldrich is back.
Posted on 3/28 7:57 PM | IP: Logged
I honestly think that both will return...
Posted on 3/29 12:04 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by kunomu: I honestly think that both will return...
I just think Collins has nothing else to prove. He is one good conditioning program away from being a poor man's Tim Hardaway/Baron Davis. Plus, I think he has a few things off the court that might need an NBA paycheck. Aldrich is a lottery pick if he goes now but I think he stays one more year.
This post was edited on 3/29 5:05 PM by 96Rebel
This post was edited on 3/29 5:06 PM by 96Rebel
Posted on 3/29 9:08 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel:
Originally posted by kunomu: I honestly think that both will return...
I just thik Collins has nothing else to prove. He is one good conditioning program away from being a poor man's Tim Hardaway/Baron Davis. Plus, I think he has a few things off the court than might need an NBA paycheck. Aldrich is a lottery pick if he goes now but I think he stays one more year.
If Kansas get Lance this week and Aldrich stays we should be preseason top 3 next year. Collins would have a shot at another title if he came back. I don't know if that would be enough but its possible.
Posted on 3/29 9:50 AM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel:
Originally posted by kunomu: I honestly think that both will return...
I just thik Collins has nothing else to prove. He is one good conditioning program away from being a poor man's Tim Hardaway/Baron Davis. Plus, I think he has a few things off the court than might need an NBA paycheck. Aldrich is a lottery pick if he goes now but I think he stays one more year.
Not sure that its the training table/conditioning that needs work, most speculate that he is just built to heavy for the NBA, the phrase "doesn't have an NBA body" has been applied. I wouldn't be shocked though if he goes out knowing he will be a 2nd rounder/European player, because of the off the field expenses. But right now the connected folks are saying he stays.
Cole could go out and make alot of money. On the other hand his offensive game could use alot of work. The great thing about college is that guys can work on their post moves against lesser competition and experience success while gaining confidence. It gets a little tougher to improve some areas of your game once you are in the league. Right now folks are also saying Cole stays.
Posted on 3/29 2:05 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by 96Rebel:
Originally posted by kunomu: I honestly think that both will return...
I just think Collins has nothing else to prove. He is one good conditioning program away from being a poor man's Tim Hardaway/Baron Davis. Plus, I think he has a few things off the court that might need an NBA paycheck. Aldrich is a lottery pick if he goes now but I think he stays one more year.
This post was edited on 3/29 5:05 PM by 96Rebel
This post was edited on 3/29 5:06 PM by 96Rebel
Actually, what we're hearing is that Collins' family is doing fine financially. Aldrich's parents are unemployed and hurting for money right now. Hope it works out for the best with both.
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