Originally posted by bluechipp: It's not impossible for K-State to climb out of the cellar but, it will probably be five years before they compete for recruits with KU and seven years before they compete on the field.
You guys are comical. It doesn't take that long to "compete for recruits" nor does it necessarily take nearly that long before "they compete on the field". Have you not paid any attention to what has happened over the last few years?
The gap between KSU and KU was much more substantial in 2002 and 2003 than it is today. In 2002, KSU was 7 points away from competing for the MNC and in 2003 was seemingly an Ell Roberson injury away from competing for the MNC. In 2002, KU was 2-10 (0-8) with wins over SW Missouri State and a horrendous 1-11 Tulsa team. KSU was a top 15 team and KU was a bottom 15 team. The 2003 KU team wasn't terrible and got a nice win over MU.
2-3 years later, in 2005, KSU and KU were comparable teams. By 2007, there was obviously a big gap. My point is your notion that it will take 5 years to climb out and 7 years to compete with KU is laughable.
For your analogy to have any validity you would have to assume that KU is declining the way that KSU's was when KU was ascending. To use a physics analogy, two cars headed toward each other at 50 mph will meet and pass each other much quicker than one car driving 50 mph being followed by a car driving 60 mph. I have seen nothing that would show that KU is in the steep decline that KSU was after '03.
Also you have to also take into account that the Big 12 north basically all recruits against each other for talent so it will be that much more difficult to get significantly better recruits unless other teams start to decline. When Mangino took over KSU, Nebraska, and Colorado were all about to take significant steps back. To varying extents, MU, KU, and ISU were making steps forward. Right now Nebraska, Missouri, Colorado, and KU all seem to be improving, while KSU and ISU have hit on hard times. For KSU to make up some serious ground in a short amount of time they probably two of NU, MU, KU, and Colorado to take significant steps back, while one stays about the same (the other team could become dominant and it might not hurt KSU for awhile) as well as ISU continuing it's downward trend. In Snyder's first run he was able to take advantage of getting 2nd tier recruits in Texas and Florida, the best JUCO's, and most all of the talent in the state of Kansas (including getting many to walk-on). Now with the emergence of TT, Baylor, OSU, TCU, and (maybe SMU with June Jones) the recruits in Texas will be more scarce. The same is true in Florida with USF, UCF, etc. Many more teams are recruiting JUCO's so now KSU is relegated to just getting the kids that no one else could get in. Finally, KU is landing the majority of in-state kids, and the elite prospects of the state are now being recruited nationally. KSU is also behind in facilities, and with the current economic situation it may be very difficult to get significant upgrades in the near future. So the question becomes...where will KSU be able to come up with the talent necessary to make this quick turn around and compete in less than 5 years?
Posted on 3/30 5:04 PM | IP: Logged
I was waiting for the "momentum" counter arguement. It is a fact that none of us knew what the momentum was in 2002 or 2004 or 2006. That can only be known after the fact. Anything prior is speculation, no matter how educated the speculation might be.
It isn't worth nitpicking over this because you aren't changing my mind and I'm not changing yours. A few quick points:
Sure, there are things different now than there was then that are working against a rebuild now. But, there were things then that didn't exist now. For example, in KSU's 7 conference games each year during the early 90's rebuild, KSU was playing 2 or 3 national title contenders every year. KU and MU have yet to have to do that on a consistent basis. KSU may or may not have to do that this time around. Funny you bring up facilities because they were a much bigger issue (and the disparity greater) for KSU in 1989 than 2009.
And, another big fault with the bulk of your comments is you treat other teams taking a step back not being impacted by the team in discussion. Part of the reason KU, MU, etc. took a step back from 1996 through 2003 is because KSU was beating them up badly year in and year out. Part of the reason KSU took a step back is because those roles reversed. Teams control who takes a step forward and back to a degree.
Posted on 3/30 5:36 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I was waiting for the "momentum" counter arguement. It is a fact that none of us knew what the momentum was in 2002 or 2004 or 2006. That can only be known after the fact. Anything prior is speculation, no matter how educated the speculation might be.
It isn't worth nitpicking over this because you aren't changing my mind and I'm not changing yours. A few quick points:
Sure, there are things different now than there was then that are working against a rebuild now. But, there were things then that didn't exist now. For example, in KSU's 7 conference games each year during the early 90's rebuild, KSU was playing 2 or 3 national title contenders every year. KU and MU have yet to have to do that on a consistent basis. KSU may or may not have to do that this time around. Funny you bring up facilities because they were a much bigger issue (and the disparity greater) for KSU in 1989 than 2009.
And, another big fault with the bulk of your comments is you treat other teams taking a step back not being impacted by the team in discussion. Part of the reason KU, MU, etc. took a step back from 1996 through 2003 is because KSU was beating them up badly year in and year out. Part of the reason KSU took a step back is because those roles reversed. Teams control who takes a step forward and back to a degree.
So...you're allowed to speculate, but if someone counters said speculation you devolve the conversation to how anyone can really "know" anything? I'll admit it is possible that KSU runs the table next year and wins the MNC, but it definitely isn't probable. Yet again I have countered your arguments with reason and you do nothing to refute them, instead you refute what is "knowable". I think this is #1 in the buylo play book: When your argument fails, point out the futility of any argument in predicting the future or resolving subjective arguments.
The fact still remains, that even without complete certainty, one could have made some fairly good guesses about the direction of some of the programs circa '02. The one common theme among them all is that they are marked by coaching changes. Right now in the north you have relatively proven commodities in Mangino and Pinkel who both don't look to be going anywhere soon. Pelini seems to have Nebraska headed in the right direction (whether or not they ascend to their previous dominance remains to be seen), Nebraska will also probably never fall as far as any of the other schools could. Hawkinson is on thin ice in Boulder, but he has recruited relatively well, so a new coach would probably have a lot to work with. Right now I don't think you could make an argument that any of those programs will begin a steep decline anytime soon. KSU also has the added problem of having virtually no young talent. This year looked to be the high water mark for a couple of years, but early departures have cast serious doubt on the ability to become bowl eligible this year. Maybe us ignorant KU fans are just missing something (most of us just learned about the existence of football a couple of years ago), so maybe if Buylo could enlighten us as to why the points being made are wrong (without getting into what sort of knowledge is possible with any certainty) we could learn why your astute speculation about KSU's imminent return to greatness is accurate while ours is wrong.
I know you're an ubergenius who's omniscience is legendary, but if you could enlighten us it would be greatly appreciated. My prediction, however, is Play #2...ignoring this thread from now on.
Posted on 3/31 1:58 PM | IP: Logged
I will come back and address this, but it will take time....time I don't have right this moment.
I will add this. This board f****ng sucks. The friendly banter used to be enjoyable. But, a select few seem to enjoy manipulating minutia in to something far bigger than intended.
Again, I'll address your post in the next couple of days.
And, to save posts from the aforementioned posters:
"Translation: waving the white flag"
Nevermind that on almost damn near every thread there are a couple of KU fans agreeing with me or the bias of the crowd here in that they believe everything positive about KU/negative about KSU/MU/etc. and the vice versa.
Posted on 3/31 3:51 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I will come back and address this, but it will take time....time I don't have right this moment.
I will add this. This board f****ng sucks. The friendly banter used to be enjoyable. But, a select few seem to enjoy manipulating minutia in to something far bigger than intended.
Again, I'll address your post in the next couple of days.
And, to save posts from the aforementioned posters:
"Translation: waving the white flag"
Nevermind that on almost damn near every thread there are a couple of KU fans agreeing with me or the bias of the crowd here in that they believe everything positive about KU/negative about KSU/MU/etc. and the vice versa.
As bad as this board may get, it's not 1/10th as bad as gopowercat.com's catchat. Most of the people you are arguing with at least have the class to do it civilly. Bferr and Hearsh seem to be the exceptions, but if you haven't figured it out yet they're trying to get under your skin. That's what they do. GPC.com has been inheriting more and more of the KSUFANS.com crowd every year. Over here we pretty much ignore the main board other than the occasional thread, everybody posts on the premium boards, and our ADMINS stay out of any sh!t flinging contests, which I am very thankful for. Anyways, don't get upset buylo. I still think you're a good guy, especially because you offered to help after the incident with my sister in law two years ago.
Posted on 3/31 6:54 PM | IP: Logged
In no way am I comparing this to GPC. But, it isn't as different as many are making it out to be. The biggest difference is 90% of the posters here are blind KU homers vs. 90% on GPC being KSU homers. Outside of that, there isn't a ton of difference.
My sentiments were comparing this board today vs. this board a year or two ago. The civil and constructive discourse is nearly extinct and the hate-inspired mean-spirited group seems to be growing. Not a huge deal, but the aspect of this board that was appealing (discussion, the occasional arguement, rivalry stuff, etc.) has almost completely been replaced. And, IMO, it isn't for the good. One of the appealing aspects to this forum, for me anyway, was its former state.
Posted on 3/31 7:23 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I will come back and address this, but it will take time....time I don't have right this moment.
I will add this. This board f****ng sucks. The friendly banter used to be enjoyable. But, a select few seem to enjoy manipulating minutia in to something far bigger than intended.
Again, I'll address your post in the next couple of days.
And, to save posts from the aforementioned posters:
"Translation: waving the white flag"
Nevermind that on almost damn near every thread there are a couple of KU fans agreeing with me or the bias of the crowd here in that they believe everything positive about KU/negative about KSU/MU/etc. and the vice versa.
People are only agreeing with you on minor points. Your threads last winter that the KSU and KU roster were basically equal are what brought on this thread and nobody on this board has agreed with you on that key point.
If you want to play the homer card I can tell you there are plenty of good KSU posters who realize Prince recruited you into a hole. They are largely on the Scout network because they got tired of Fitzgerald's blatant homerism. Nonetheless they acknowledge that Snyder has a two or three year rebuilding project ahead of him. You were convinced last winter that Prince's recruiting had been good and KU and KSU were on equal footing. That is the difference between You and a rational poster.
Posted on 3/31 4:19 PM | IP: Logged
What makes you think I don't think KSU has a 3-year building process ahead of itself?
My only statement is that there wasn't a huge talent discrepency on the field last fall. I still believe that. Many KSU people do. Many neutral people do. Many neutral people don't. We won't ever know. I think my stance will be validated if the game this fall is competitive as there wasn't a huge overhaul to either roster. I guess we'll have a better idea this fall.
I have stated on here and many times on GPC's premium site that KSU has a numbers mess for 3 years. That is a different issue than the 11 guys lining up against each other playing. If you want to mince the two, then I agree it is a poor arguement. But, IMO, those are two different things that overlap to a small degree.
Posted on 3/31 7:44 PM | IP: Logged
BuyHighSellLo- Don't blame this board for your problems. Blame Keithen Valentine for not winning the Heisman, Mangino for not being the next Jim Wooldridge, Carson Coffman for having a noodle arm, Ron Prince for fooling you into thinking he had any leadership qualities whatsoever, Mangino for not getting canned (thank your sources for that one), your spelling teacher for failing miserably and yourself for being a complete MUNSON!!!!
You'll never solve your problems if you don't direct your anger at the actual source
Posted on 3/31 4:47 PM | IP: Logged
I'm not blaming this board for problems.
I will blame you for having the most tired schtick since Nickelback's 5th album mated with the offspring of the Wayans Brothers and Celebrity Apprentice 2.
Posted on 3/31 7:53 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I'm not blaming this board for problems.
I will blame you for having the most tired schtick since Nickelback's 5th album mated with the offspring of the Wayans Brothers and Celebrity Apprentice 2.
Who are you replying to?
Posted on 3/31 8:00 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by Turinturumbar:
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I'm not blaming this board for problems.
I will blame you for having the most tired schtick since Nickelback's 5th album mated with the offspring of the Wayans Brothers and Celebrity Apprentice 2.
Who are you replying to?
BFerr
Posted on 3/31 8:05 PM | IP: Logged
BuyHighSellLo- I find it very ironic that you're calling us "homers". Every stupid prediction you've made on here is based off the fact that you're one of the biggest KSU homers around. You showed blind faith in Coach Prince, your RB situation last year, your talent level compared to KU, etc.. Yet were all homers? I remember you coming on here laughing it up about us losing Boyd-Anderson and Bean (our 4th and 5th string RB's) last year. When we questioned you about your RB situation you raved about Valentine and said we were pretty much in the same boat RB wise. Really? We had a guy returning that almost rushed for 1,000 yds as a backup. We also had a guy that was JUCO player of the year coming in. You had a walk-on that was "tearing it up" in practice and a WR that was hopefully going to make the transition back to RB. Yet your blind faith in KSU and Ron Prince led you to believe everything would be alright for your Cats and things wouldn't turn out so well for KU. I believe Sharp ended up 2nd in the Big XII in rushing during conference play. Where was Valentine at on that list?
Whenever the crap you spew turns out be wrong it isn't worth discussing and makes the board not as fun anymore? I know you like to pat yourself on the back when you're right, the only problem is it doesn't happen very much. Learn to deal with losing, you are a KSU fan so you should have years of practice by now.
How am I tired? Your whole gig is to alert us when there is a negative story regarding KU or when you get overly excited about your Cats. You come on here beating your chest only to get laughed at and made a fool out of. For example during the end of recruiting when Snyder was getting heavy interest from all those guys KU was offering. Remember that list you had that included baseball player Tanner Poppe? Way to prove your point.
You come on here and try to act like an objective fan, but over time the purple bleeds out and you look closer and closer to some of the special members over there at GPC. WildcatDad, Fitz and gr82baCAT come to mind. I just think you need to be comfortable in your own skin and not try to be someone you aren't.
This post was edited on 4/2 2:19 PM by BFerr
Posted on 4/2 2:15 PM | IP: Logged
Amen brother! You just summed up kittykat nation.
Posted on 4/4 7:44 AM | IP: Logged
Yeah buylo, you and your purple brethren are soooooooo different. Real nice discussion over on GPC it relates to KU. Give me a break
And you live off minutia in arguEments. Oh geez, look what I just did. I went and proved your point. Shucks!
Posted on 3/31 4:01 PM | IP: Logged
Originally posted by BuyLoSellHiCat: I was waiting for the "momentum" counter arguement.
See, buylo knows what you're thinking!!! You should beg him to get out of your stream of consciousness and leave you alone before your life is ruined.
Posted on 3/30 11:47 PM | IP: Logged
KSU's '08 team would have gone 3-4 or 4-3 in conference in the early 90s BIG 8. They would have been killed by OU and NU and CU. They would have beaten MU, OSU, and ISU with ease and the KU game would have been a toss up. The Old Big 8 was top heavy. Plenty of room for upward movement for a mediocre program. Now, every single program has put football as a priority and every single program is struggling for power. IMO, much more competition for KSU now than there was during Snyder's first takeover in Manhattan. There are more than just 2 or 3 conference games.
Posted on 3/30 8:53 PM | IP: Logged
BFerr,
It's quite obvious buylo has adopted the Bill Snyder scheduling mentality with his battles on the Slant. The clown suit became a permanent uniform very quickly over here. I wish he'd return to the scheduling philosphy of his mentor, Coach Prince, and add us back for the occasional test of what he's got.
I'm desperate to know how Keithen Valentine is developing, when we should expect Lew to can Mangino, how many recruits you recently signed that had written KU offers and how many football games KSU will actually win this year by subtracting three from your guess. Come on, buylo, someone so astute and wise such as yourself can certainly agree that Ron would not consider tucking your tail and taking your ball home in the face of scrutiny and better competition very good leadership qualities.
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